The IT Skeptic - Comments for "ITIL V3 Certification via online training is back on again"

No scandal here

skeptic — Thu, 17 Sep 2009 06:08:11 +0000

Yes I can officially confirm that it is up to the EI what policy they have on this. there is no requirement for separation between trainer and proctor

No Issue

Duncs — Mon, 14 Sep 2009 12:05:53 +0000

The split is dependent on EI. ISEB use seperate invigilators, EXIN and APMG themselves do not.

As Prince2 Foundations are invigilated and marked by the trainer, I can't see them really seeing an issue with this.

invigigate

skeptic — Mon, 14 Sep 2009 10:38:49 +0000

Do we have an InvigiGATE scandal here? Are some ATOs being given dispensation to invigilate their own exams and others not? Do APMG know about this?

Well you shouldn't. By doing

David — Mon, 14 Sep 2009 10:20:20 +0000

Well you shouldn't.
By doing so, you are breaking one of the requirements you or your company signed for.
An acredited trainer cannot be accredited supervisor and a trainer can't proctor an exam.

All I had to do was fill one

Visitor — Fri, 24 Oct 2008 07:58:25 +0000

All I had to do was fill one form in, nothing 'special' about it. And I suspect the reason is rather mundane - to avoid paying fees to an independant invigilator when they already have me for the day...

trainers can invigilate EXIN exams

Visitor — Mon, 20 Oct 2008 20:55:17 +0000

pjotrg,
re your comment, "EXIN exams always need to be inviligated by an independent person (not the trainer)" - not so, at least in the UK. I invigilate a range of exams for my V2 and V3 classes, all EXIN.

Mutli-Choice is not bad...

kengon — Mon, 20 Oct 2008 09:23:48 +0000

From my point of view, it's important to remember that the means for evaluation (i.e. multiple choice exam) is not as important as:

Understanding what you want to evaluate
Selecting an evaluation method appropriate to it

Keeping an eye on the scope is of critical importance. An individuals knowledge, skills and abilities are all worthy of evaluation and they often require different means to evaluate properly. Anyone thinking it's a "one size fits all" proposition is fooling themselves.

The certification program needs to reflect this (in establishing scope and intent) and set expectations with all stakeholders appropriately.

kengon

SM Exams

pjotrg — Sun, 19 Oct 2008 11:52:52 +0000

It was only very recently that The Lords of APMG decided that an ICA is no longer needed. We (that is when I work for Quint Wellington Redwood) still do it and still take it very seriously.

It was a great shock to me to also have heared about 6 months ago that The Lords of APMG have decided that the exams at SM level will be Multi Point Choise, just because correcting took a long time and apparantly the japanese would not be able to produce proper written exam. There goes quality....down the drain!!
If you already see the poor quality of the MPC exams on foundation level, how can you ever properly test a Service Managers (or ITIL Expert) competence level??

Online exams

pjotrg — Sat, 18 Oct 2008 18:01:36 +0000

EXIN offers te possibility to take as well paperbased exams as online exams. Any institute can become EXIN exam center if they comply to certain rules (to become EXIN Partner). EXIN exams always need to be inviligated by an independent person (not the trainer), so you take an online exam with EXIN in one of the accredited centers (which may be the traning institute)
The advantage of taking online exams via EXIN is that there are much more languages vailable than via Prometric (which is only English). V2 offers much more languages as EXIN makes them themselves. For ITIL V3 they are dependent of what the Lords of AMPG decide to translate. See www.exin-exams.com. The big advantage of taking an online exams at the end of the training is that the participants leave the training center with their results!

On-line or on-line?

Duncan Anderson — Fri, 17 Oct 2008 11:31:32 +0000

Kevin I think there are two points in your post which should be investigated.

Firstly, what do we mean by on-line? If we take on-line as meaning on the web and accessed anywhere then you're right that there's no guarantee that the delegate isn't cheating. The on-line referred to, I believe, is via one of the two big online testing providers; Prometric and VUE. Both of them running testing centres which delegates take the exams at. They have to adhere to a strict code to ensure candidates don't cheat including the build of the machines which restricts access to anything outside of the test program. That said there has been at least one occurence of a "rogue" test centre who would take the exam for you for the right price.

Why people want online exams? I think cost is a factor but I think convenience and speed of results are more so. For someone taking the v3 Foundation they can locate a Prometric test centre in a town near to them and book in for any 60 minute slot that's available during the test centre's opening hours. Not having to stick to strict schedules from training companies or EIs.

Also, EIs vary in the way exams are invigilators. The company I work for use ISEB who provide the invigilator so I have to leave the room before they take the exam. I believe this isn't the same for EXIN and I'm not sure about others.

The Good Old Days

JamesFinister — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 18:07:41 +0000

Kevin,

You mean like the good old days of v1 manager's certificate when I did it, and when there was also an element of in course assessment of delegates that the training providers I worked with took very very seriously.

James

On-line V3 exams

Kevin Holland — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 16:12:44 +0000

The issue here is that the questions have not been designed with any consideration for them to be taken purely on-line. I have also been very unsure for many years about the efficacy of on-line exams where you cant check that the candidates havent got someone next to them, or have the books open.

So those who keep whinging about not having on-line exams need to examine WHY they want them. Profit margin perhaps??

Why don't we adopt the very sensible approach taken by the people who offer on-line and remote learning for the accountancy qualifications? Learning is off-line, 'public' exams are then held by a variety of accredited bodies in a varierty of locations at regular intervals, and properly invigilated (ie not just by some bloke who also happens to have trained the people and who has given some guarantee on pass rates..) . That is the ONLY way that you can take the exam, ie training providesr cant run them themselves. Candidates pay the fees and book into an exam. Much more sensible.

Context

JamesFinister — Sun, 05 Oct 2008 09:09:33 +0000

I should have given a bit more context. Essentially his point (not mine) is that you shouldn't send people on training unless they and the organisation have already made a psychological commitment to the end in view. He is also talking about a specific form of training in a certain scenario - the one where senior management think by sending everyone on a training course they can transfer all responsibility for cultural change to the workforce.

We've all been on, or led, training courses where people are on it because they've been sent on it, with no personal commitment, and courses where people have had their enthusiasm raised only to have it dashed when they get back to the office and are told to get real.

In this specific context I don't think the analogy to a mountaineering course holds up without been stretched way too far, but it holds good as a an analogy for the kind of service management training we should be developing, delivering, procuring and attending. The V1 manager's courses all contained a high level of experiential training, and an element of taking simple elements and combining them together to build a cohesive skill set. It worked well then for people who were starting out on the ITIL journey, but then the attendees in those days were often people who could go back to the office and make things happen.

Incidentally send me on a mountaineering course and you still won't get me to climb mountains unless you can do something about my morbid fear of heights first ;-)

Learning To Climb Mountains...

kengon — Sat, 04 Oct 2008 19:26:58 +0000

James,

there is a right time for training, and it is nearer the end of a transformation, not at the beginning.

I fail to see how that could possibly be warranted. That's like saying your going to go down to your outdoor equipment vendor, buy gear and just go out and attempt a mountain climb and galcier crossing without any training. The likelihood of your perishing is pretty high. Setting a proper context for participating in a transformation is essential. Training should be required throughout, not just at the beginning.

This is a very different point than your follow on about your consulting experience.

kengon

Strategy and the Fat Smoker

JamesFinister — Sat, 04 Oct 2008 14:07:29 +0000

Thanks to a four hour flight I've fianlly got round to reading "Strategy and the Fat Smoker"

One very good point David Maister is that there is a right time for training, and it is nearer the end of a transformation, not at the beginning. The idea of someone leading an ITIL project after only attendingg on line training scares me to death, then I used to work for a global consultancy tghat thought putting people through on line V2 Foundation training was enough to be able to sell them as ITIL experts.

training is its own end, not just a means to certific

skeptic — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 01:48:08 +0000

I agree with the principle that training is its own end, not just a means to certification.

Therefore the two should be decoupled.
If i want to buy training i should be able to buy training (online or classroom, accredited or not, should be my choice as a consumer).
if i want to sit certification i should be able to sit certification.
and if I want a package of certification and training entirely focused on passing it I should be able to buy that too.

Right now the market only offers the third option because the ITIL industry uses the copyright and trademark of ITIL to force a monopolistic position where alternative providers are threatened with legal action.

If accreditation of an ATO genuinely provides a superior training product then I will buy it. If it is NOT just a revenue-raising rubber stamp then it should not need to force a monopolistic position - the market will seek it out.

Training vs. Certification

Dave Howard — Thu, 02 Oct 2008 15:59:18 +0000

You briefly touch on a nuance that gets lost on many people, what is the real reason for taking a training class, is it to get another certification or actually learn? I know it is important to build your resume with certifications, however, if training classes are so focused on passing the exam, the learning experience is diluted. This is were I personally have issues with some ATO's, when you see advertising for an ITIL Boot Camp and 90% pass rate, I question what is the motivation of the ATO ($). Let's face it, in these tough economic times, companies are cutting training budgets and asking for justification of the training dollars they are allocating, focusing on learning and gaining usable knowledge has more importance to the organization and can out weigh the certification side. AMPG should be focusing on the learning experience; requiring classroom time or on-line learning time is a step in the right direction. There is nothing wrong with having on-line certification as long as it is combined with a time requirement.

But....

Claire Agutter — Thu, 02 Oct 2008 12:32:30 +0000

Unfortunately, this is exactly the issue we as an online training provider have come up against.

We can provide online courses, that's fine no problem, we pay to get the course accredited just like anyone else.
But no exams are available online at the end of it - so the market is very, very limited.

Larger companies who offer classroom and online can still offer exams - but the pure online providers will still struggle.

We are investigating other solutions such as using libraries in the US, but it's far from ideal, particuarly for global operators.

Claire

You Caught Me Drinking...

kengon — Wed, 01 Oct 2008 04:50:47 +0000

Skep,

"The whole V3 Certification thing is lurching around like a pantomime donkey where the front guy has flatulence."

I found myself reading this posting as I was taking a big swig (gulp, actually) of water. Upon getting to this sentence, I plastered the curtain in my Marriott hotel room (please don't tell the manager!) -- fortunately it was just water and will dry. Thanks for that visual. Reminiscent of the scene from the movie Rocketman (a personal favorite). Hilarious!

Enjoy your time off!
kengon